Week of August 29, 2001

Do you know someone who never seems to experience joy? Whether it be a new pair of shoes, a new job, or even a raise - they never look happy and their personality always seems “blah.” It’s something that used to be thought to be a personality disorder, but the mental health community now recognizes these symptoms to be a mood disorder. It’s a chronic low-level depression called "dysthymia." And if left untreated, or misdiagnosed, which is what often happens, it can last for a lifetime. Guests include; web designer Kristy Mclean, who has dysthymia; research psychiatrist Dr. John Markowitz of Payne-Whitney Clinic in New York; composer and author Mary Rodgers on her depression and that of her father, composer Richard Rodgers; author and psychiatrist Dr. Peter Kramer and comedian Lisa Kaplan, who makes depression part of her act.

The show begins with an introductory essay by host Dr. Fred Goodwin. He talks about a patient he had - back when the mental health community had not yet really recognized dysthymia as a mood disorder. The patient was part of a medication study, but was initially not given the drug because she didn't seem "depressed enough." After months of unsuccessful talk therapy, she asked for the medication, and Dr. Goodwin acceded, surprised when a happier, more confident person emerged as a result.

Our first interview is with web designer and poet Kristy Mclean. She explains what it’s like to have dysthymia as well as double depression, which is major depression superimposed on to dysthymia. She says she was always sad and didn’t experience joy. And when she felt happiness, it scared her because it wasn’t a feeling she was used to, so she reverted back to something she knew well: sadness. She says that like most people who have dysthymia, she thought her depression was just part of her personality.

Joining the discussion is Dr. John Markowitz, who’s the author of the book, “Interpersonal Psychotherapy for Dysthymic Disorder.” He tells us that Mclean’s story is typical; many of his patients, he says, come to his office and say that they are melancholy and that’s their personality. Markowitz says it’s a challenge to get the patient to realize that the dysthymia is a mood disorder and is not part of their personality. He says the best psychotherapy for this kind of depression is cognitive or behavioral - therapies that try to analyze the present, as opposed to analyzing the patient’s past.

One of our callers asks if a person who has dysthymia can ever really feel better. Kristy Mclean tells us that she now experiences joy. And Dr. Markowitz says it’s important to realize that the feeling of “maybe I’ll never feel better” isn’t reality, but merely a symptom of the depression. He says it’s important to be take the risk of being happy and of having hope. To contact Kristy Mclean, or click here to check out her website. Note that on the site, she uses the name Gwenevere.

Next up is Mary Rodgers. She composed the music for the 1959 hit musical “Once Upon a Mattress,” and she’s also the author of the children’s book “Freaky Friday.” Rodgers talks about her dysthymia as well her father’s depression - her father was Richard Rodgers, from the famous “Rodgers & Hammerstein” music-writing duo. Mary Rodgers says that she too thought her sadness was a part of who she was. She took amphetimines to try to make herself feel better. And when she was diagnosed with dysthymia, she says she was insulted: “It offended my Puritan sensibilities.” She also talks about her father’s depression - though he didn’t have dysthymia You can contact Mary Rodgers through the Rodgers & Hammerstien Organization at 212-541-6600.

Comedy may be one of the last things you expect to hear on a show about depression, but Dr. Goodwin's next guest, comedian Lisa Kaplan was, in fact, diagnosed with dysthymia. After receiving therapy and medication, she now feels much better. We begin with a clip of her stand-up routine at the Gotham Comedy Club in New York City. She then talks about how and why she decided to go into comedy. Kaplan says she doesn’t try to change her affect when she goes on stage; her persona is the way she is naturally, sounding low-key and almost depressed. You can email Lisa Kaplan at lkaplan2@aol.com.

Our next guest is Dr. Peter Kramer, author of “Listening to Prozac,” a book that changed the way the mental health community understood depression and anti-depressants. Kramer observes that it was long thought normal for people to have different personalities and different moods, sadness being one of those moods. He says that he has some patients who are artists and refuse - rightly or wrongly- to take medication, because they feel that there’s value in their depression and that it helps their art. Dr. Kramer says that perhaps we’d be a richer society if we were more accepting of the wide spectrum of different personalities.

Dr. Kramer also talks about his new book, a work of fiction called “Spectacular Happiness.” One of the characters in his book begins to take anti-depressants, and Dr. Kramer discusses how the medication affected the character's life, as well as how it affects people’s lives in the real world too.

Finally, we’ve heard what dysthymia is and how it feels, but what about if you spend a lot of time with someone who has it? Does it affect you? The Infinite Mind’s Devorah Klahr reports on what to do if you’re with someone who’s depressed. Rhonda has dysthymia and she’s married to Lee, who says that when his wife is depressed, it makes him feel angry and alone. Lee doesn’t usually tell Rhonda how he feels when she’s sad, because he’s afraid that if he does he’ll “open up a can of worms.” But for this story, Rhonda asks her husband how her depression makes him feel ... and he responds. We also hear from an expert, psychologist Laura Epstein Rosen. She’s the author of “When Someone You Love is Depressed: How to Help your Loved One Without Losing Yourself.” She says that depression can be contagious. If you’re with someone who’s depressed, she says, you’re more likely to get depressed yourself. So what should you do if you’re with someone who’s depressed? Dr. Rosen says that if you’re the non-depressed partner, you should learn about depression so that you understand it; you should tell your partner how the depression makes you feel; and you should realize that you can’t make someone’s depression better all by yourself. “The biggest boo boo is the most common boo boo,” she says, that’s when the non-depressed partner tells the depressed partner “get over it. It can’t be that bad.” And Dr. Rosen says it might be helpful to go to couples counseling and for the non-depressed partner to get help if he or she starts to feel depressed too. You can contact Dr. Laura Epstein Rosen at lerosen@bellatlantic.net.

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